Comments on: What’s the Punishment for Throwing a Shoe? http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/12/18/whats-the-punishment-for-throwing-a-shoe/ Yet another political blog Mon, 04 Jan 2010 19:51:44 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Ian http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/12/18/whats-the-punishment-for-throwing-a-shoe/comment-page-1/#comment-638 Ian Sat, 20 Dec 2008 02:45:09 +0000 http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=712#comment-638 <p>Hello, Bob! I agree our ignorance of Iraqi customs and feelings is an enormous problem. I think this raises an interesting and important question about cultural relativity versus universal values. I agree that the Iraqis who are rallying around the shoe-thrower are expressing hostility that already existed -- and this is why the shoe-thrower may provide some helpful catharsis for Iraqis who still need to vent some of their feelings. On the other hand, some might use cultural difference as an excuse for the beating of the shoe-thrower, arguing, "his treatment may seem brutal to us, but that's because we don't understand Iraqi culture, and in that culture the shoe-thrower's brutality is less shocking, and more appropriate." I disagree -- I think the context is different, but that doesn't mean the abuse won't have a powerful effect in Iraq in feeding the flames of that hostility.</p> Hello, Bob! I agree our ignorance of Iraqi customs and feelings is an enormous problem. I think this raises an interesting and important question about cultural relativity versus universal values. I agree that the Iraqis who are rallying around the shoe-thrower are expressing hostility that already existed — and this is why the shoe-thrower may provide some helpful catharsis for Iraqis who still need to vent some of their feelings. On the other hand, some might use cultural difference as an excuse for the beating of the shoe-thrower, arguing, “his treatment may seem brutal to us, but that’s because we don’t understand Iraqi culture, and in that culture the shoe-thrower’s brutality is less shocking, and more appropriate.” I disagree — I think the context is different, but that doesn’t mean the abuse won’t have a powerful effect in Iraq in feeding the flames of that hostility.

]]> By: Lee http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/12/18/whats-the-punishment-for-throwing-a-shoe/comment-page-1/#comment-637 Lee Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:46:03 +0000 http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=712#comment-637 <p>Hey, Bob, welcome to <em>History is Happening Now</em>.  Thanks for commenting.  I think it's fair enough for the Iraqis to prosecute the shoe-thrower for whatever local laws he may have violated by throwing his shoe.  I would hope that the act would be understood as a relatively minor offense and that he would get a slap on the wrist.  I suspect there will be enormous popular pressure to release him.  By apparently beating him -- I'm sure we'll find out more soon -- the Iraqi security forces have made him into more of a folk hero than he would otherwise have become.  The longer he is in custody the more popular pressure will build up.</p> Hey, Bob, welcome to History is Happening Now.  Thanks for commenting.  I think it’s fair enough for the Iraqis to prosecute the shoe-thrower for whatever local laws he may have violated by throwing his shoe.  I would hope that the act would be understood as a relatively minor offense and that he would get a slap on the wrist.  I suspect there will be enormous popular pressure to release him.  By apparently beating him — I’m sure we’ll find out more soon — the Iraqi security forces have made him into more of a folk hero than he would otherwise have become.  The longer he is in custody the more popular pressure will build up.

]]> By: bob http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/12/18/whats-the-punishment-for-throwing-a-shoe/comment-page-1/#comment-636 bob Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:22:03 +0000 http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=712#comment-636 John, i must say i would never press charges against someone who threw a shoe at me. though i understand the law i must remind everyone who sees this that this was a common insult. it would be rather like flipping someone off though this is a more violent act i thought it a stupid reaction to hostility. bush laughed at the insult as did i and think people are getting worked up over hostility that we already knew existed. The real problem i see here is our ignorance of oversea customs and feelings. John, i must say i would never press charges against someone who threw a shoe at me. though i understand the law i must remind everyone who sees this that this was a common insult. it would be rather like flipping someone off though this is a more violent act i thought it a stupid reaction to hostility. bush laughed at the insult as did i and think people are getting worked up over hostility that we already knew existed. The real problem i see here is our ignorance of oversea customs and feelings.

]]> By: Lee http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/12/18/whats-the-punishment-for-throwing-a-shoe/comment-page-1/#comment-635 Lee Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:37:47 +0000 http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=712#comment-635 <p>"For me, the key question is, should he be beaten, tortured, etc."</p> <p>Well, the answer to this question seems pretty obvious to me.  You don't torture because it's a violation of all civilized codes of conduct.  And illegal, according to international standards of decency, to boot.  And a twisted means by which one person or group of people tyrannize another.</p> <p>We used to rightly consider torture regimes sick, twisted, depraved examples of human corruption and degradation.  We rightly pointed out that torturers were monsters who ought to be prosecuted and jailed for their crimes.  Now, by Dick Cheney's own happy admission, we do the thing we used to claim to deplore (it's different when we torture; in fact, because the US does it, it can't even be defined as torture!) and also have installed a regime in a country that has apparently adopted our torture techniques.</p> <p>Because of these reports of torture, I suspect that the shoe-thrower is going to become a huge symbol of resistance to the occupation for many Iraqis.  The treatment you mention above is going to be understood as a natural and intentional extension of the torture regime already instituted by Bush & co.  Having him be released will be a big priorty for activists, I suspect.  I'm not sure how it'll play out, longer term.</p> “For me, the key question is, should he be beaten, tortured, etc.”

Well, the answer to this question seems pretty obvious to me.  You don’t torture because it’s a violation of all civilized codes of conduct.  And illegal, according to international standards of decency, to boot.  And a twisted means by which one person or group of people tyrannize another.

We used to rightly consider torture regimes sick, twisted, depraved examples of human corruption and degradation.  We rightly pointed out that torturers were monsters who ought to be prosecuted and jailed for their crimes.  Now, by Dick Cheney’s own happy admission, we do the thing we used to claim to deplore (it’s different when we torture; in fact, because the US does it, it can’t even be defined as torture!) and also have installed a regime in a country that has apparently adopted our torture techniques.

Because of these reports of torture, I suspect that the shoe-thrower is going to become a huge symbol of resistance to the occupation for many Iraqis.  The treatment you mention above is going to be understood as a natural and intentional extension of the torture regime already instituted by Bush & co.  Having him be released will be a big priorty for activists, I suspect.  I’m not sure how it’ll play out, longer term.

]]> By: Ian http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/12/18/whats-the-punishment-for-throwing-a-shoe/comment-page-1/#comment-634 Ian Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:53:31 +0000 http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=712#comment-634 <p>To John: You may be absolutely right about the criminal charge. I can't imagine myself filing charges against someone for throwing shoes at me -- but just because I can't imagine it now, that doesn't mean I wouldn't actually do it. For me, the key question is, should he be beaten, tortured, etc. The tiny gratification Iraqi government officials may derive from inflicting pain on this guy is nothing compared to the moral legitimacy the Iraqi government forfeits when it lets brutality substitute for justice.</p> To John: You may be absolutely right about the criminal charge. I can’t imagine myself filing charges against someone for throwing shoes at me — but just because I can’t imagine it now, that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t actually do it. For me, the key question is, should he be beaten, tortured, etc. The tiny gratification Iraqi government officials may derive from inflicting pain on this guy is nothing compared to the moral legitimacy the Iraqi government forfeits when it lets brutality substitute for justice.

]]> By: John http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/12/18/whats-the-punishment-for-throwing-a-shoe/comment-page-1/#comment-633 John Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:56:58 +0000 http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=712#comment-633 I disagree about the assault charge. While I am ignorant of Iraqi criminal code it seems to be a well thrown object right at someones head constitutes assault and battery. The fact the President had quick reflexes shouldn't affect that. If someone threw a shoe at your face wouldn't you press charges? In any case being fired seems proper for the reasons you state. I disagree about the assault charge. While I am ignorant of Iraqi criminal code it seems to be a well thrown object right at someones head constitutes assault and battery. The fact the President had quick reflexes shouldn’t affect that.
If someone threw a shoe at your face wouldn’t you press charges?
In any case being fired seems proper for the reasons you state.

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