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	<title>Comments on: McCain the Liar hides behind Joe the Plumber (with update)</title>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-plumbers/comment-page-1/#comment-418</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=524#comment-418</guid>
		<description>rbates, (again, I&#039;m very sympathetic to your position) but I don&#039;t see how Joe&#039;s income can be off-limits when his income is absolutely central to the point McCain is using Joe to make.

Listen to what John Kass wrote in a column about Joe the Plumber in the Chicago Tribune:

&quot;Tax experts were consulted and said that even if Joe could afford to buy the plumbing business, he shouldn&#039;t worry about Obama&#039;s taxes. But I grew up in a small family business, and saw what my father went through to pay this tax and that tax and the other tax and then try to pay our bills, so listening to experts reassure small business owners that they shouldn&#039;t worry when Democrats may control all of Washington made me want to laugh my head off.&quot;

Kass is trying to make the argument that Joe the Plumber would pay higher taxes under Obama&#039;s tax plan. His argument is based NOT on facts (which say the opposite) but on stupid prejudices (Dems always raise taxes on working people), faulty logic (my dad struggled to pay his taxes, so Obama&#039;s tax plan will hurt Joe the Plumber), and mindless emotion (&quot;laughing his head off&quot;).

Faced with this, the media simply must report on Joe&#039;s income. Otherwise, a sense of propriety will allow stupid prejudice, faulty logic and mindless emotion to trump the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rbates, (again, I&#8217;m very sympathetic to your position) but I don&#8217;t see how Joe&#8217;s income can be off-limits when his income is absolutely central to the point McCain is using Joe to make.</p>
<p>Listen to what John Kass wrote in a column about Joe the Plumber in the Chicago Tribune:</p>
<p>&#8220;Tax experts were consulted and said that even if Joe could afford to buy the plumbing business, he shouldn&#8217;t worry about Obama&#8217;s taxes. But I grew up in a small family business, and saw what my father went through to pay this tax and that tax and the other tax and then try to pay our bills, so listening to experts reassure small business owners that they shouldn&#8217;t worry when Democrats may control all of Washington made me want to laugh my head off.&#8221;</p>
<p>Kass is trying to make the argument that Joe the Plumber would pay higher taxes under Obama&#8217;s tax plan. His argument is based NOT on facts (which say the opposite) but on stupid prejudices (Dems always raise taxes on working people), faulty logic (my dad struggled to pay his taxes, so Obama&#8217;s tax plan will hurt Joe the Plumber), and mindless emotion (&#8220;laughing his head off&#8221;).</p>
<p>Faced with this, the media simply must report on Joe&#8217;s income. Otherwise, a sense of propriety will allow stupid prejudice, faulty logic and mindless emotion to trump the truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-plumbers/comment-page-1/#comment-419</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 02:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=524#comment-419</guid>
		<description>If I were a journalist covering this year&#039;s election, and one of the candidates used the situation of someone like Joe as an example of why his opponent&#039;s plans were not good, it would be very hard for me not to write about that someone.

It&#039;s a no-win situation from the perspective of the journalist.  By bringing up the Joe-like person, the politician in question has turned the situation of Joe and people like him into a campaign issue.  But I agree that Joe&#039;s personal life should be off limits, especially if that&#039;s Joe&#039;s preference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I were a journalist covering this year&#8217;s election, and one of the candidates used the situation of someone like Joe as an example of why his opponent&#8217;s plans were not good, it would be very hard for me not to write about that someone.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a no-win situation from the perspective of the journalist.  By bringing up the Joe-like person, the politician in question has turned the situation of Joe and people like him into a campaign issue.  But I agree that Joe&#8217;s personal life should be off limits, especially if that&#8217;s Joe&#8217;s preference.</p>
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		<title>By: rbates</title>
		<link>http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-plumbers/comment-page-1/#comment-426</link>
		<dc:creator>rbates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 01:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=524#comment-426</guid>
		<description>Honestly Ian, I don&#039;t think that it has been one particular news source more than the other.  I think they have all covered equally in my opinion.

I think pretty much all details about his personal life are off limits.  I think it would be fair for people to state that Obama&#039;s tax plan would not effect him, but I don&#039;t think the nation needs to know what this guy makes.  Just my opinion and maybe I am being over sensitive about all of this, but I am just trying to place myslef in this guy&#039;s position.  One thing for sure - I will never ask a Presidential candidate a question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly Ian, I don&#8217;t think that it has been one particular news source more than the other.  I think they have all covered equally in my opinion.</p>
<p>I think pretty much all details about his personal life are off limits.  I think it would be fair for people to state that Obama&#8217;s tax plan would not effect him, but I don&#8217;t think the nation needs to know what this guy makes.  Just my opinion and maybe I am being over sensitive about all of this, but I am just trying to place myslef in this guy&#8217;s position.  One thing for sure &#8211; I will never ask a Presidential candidate a question.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-plumbers/comment-page-1/#comment-425</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=524#comment-425</guid>
		<description>rbates, I agree that the scrutiney of Joe could have been done differently. But by whom? Was it the New York Times that crossed the line? Was it Fox News? Which details are legitimate and which should be off-limits?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rbates, I agree that the scrutiney of Joe could have been done differently. But by whom? Was it the New York Times that crossed the line? Was it Fox News? Which details are legitimate and which should be off-limits?</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-plumbers/comment-page-1/#comment-424</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=524#comment-424</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to know more about Graeme Frost and S-CHIP.

That said, the only important point to make about Joe the Plumber is that he was WRONG when he said he&#039;d pay more in taxes under Obama&#039;s plan, and McCain was also WRONG when he said the same thing.

The problem is, you can&#039;t accuse an ordinary guy like Joe the Plumber of being WRONG (even when Joe the Plumber is clearly WRONG) without being accused of somehow disrespecting Joe the Plumber and all hard-working, tax-paying, law-abiding middle class Americans just like Joe.

I can hear the right-wing whackos firing back: &quot;How dare you say Joe the Plumber is wrong! Are you saying Joe the Plumber is too stupid to understand Obama&#039;s tax plan? Are you saying Joe the Plumber is lying? How dare you dirty urban wine-sipping liberals make those terrible accusations against an ordinary hard-working middle-class American like Joe! How dare you!&quot; (see McCain quote above)

That&#039;s why people like me feel obligated to point out in advance that Joe may be a hard-working midwesterner, but he is NOT law-abiding, he is NOT tax-paying, and he IS either ignorant or lying!

Sorry, Joe. It&#039;s nothing personal. But I feel it is my patriotic duty to point out that your now-famous concerns about Obama&#039;s tax plan have nothing to do with Obama&#039;s tax plan, and everything to do with your ignorance, stupidity, or deceitfulness. These aren&#039;t &quot;political attacks&quot; aimed at Joe. They are an effort to expose the McCain campaign&#039;s lies.

So I agree with Lee on this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to know more about Graeme Frost and S-CHIP.</p>
<p>That said, the only important point to make about Joe the Plumber is that he was WRONG when he said he&#8217;d pay more in taxes under Obama&#8217;s plan, and McCain was also WRONG when he said the same thing.</p>
<p>The problem is, you can&#8217;t accuse an ordinary guy like Joe the Plumber of being WRONG (even when Joe the Plumber is clearly WRONG) without being accused of somehow disrespecting Joe the Plumber and all hard-working, tax-paying, law-abiding middle class Americans just like Joe.</p>
<p>I can hear the right-wing whackos firing back: &#8220;How dare you say Joe the Plumber is wrong! Are you saying Joe the Plumber is too stupid to understand Obama&#8217;s tax plan? Are you saying Joe the Plumber is lying? How dare you dirty urban wine-sipping liberals make those terrible accusations against an ordinary hard-working middle-class American like Joe! How dare you!&#8221; (see McCain quote above)</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why people like me feel obligated to point out in advance that Joe may be a hard-working midwesterner, but he is NOT law-abiding, he is NOT tax-paying, and he IS either ignorant or lying!</p>
<p>Sorry, Joe. It&#8217;s nothing personal. But I feel it is my patriotic duty to point out that your now-famous concerns about Obama&#8217;s tax plan have nothing to do with Obama&#8217;s tax plan, and everything to do with your ignorance, stupidity, or deceitfulness. These aren&#8217;t &#8220;political attacks&#8221; aimed at Joe. They are an effort to expose the McCain campaign&#8217;s lies.</p>
<p>So I agree with Lee on this one.</p>
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		<title>By: rbates</title>
		<link>http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-plumbers/comment-page-1/#comment-423</link>
		<dc:creator>rbates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 23:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=524#comment-423</guid>
		<description>I understand your point about scrutinizing Joe the Plumber&#039;s situation, but I just think it could have been done differently.  I mean, who isn&#039;t off limits now?

Like you said McCain is also to blame for this becuase he brought up Joe&#039;s specific situation.  What he should have done is just mention him in general terms.  That being said I still don&#039;t like the fact that the media has dug into this guy&#039;s personal life and exposed it to the rest of the country.  I don&#039;t think anyone deserves that kind of treatment, especially when all you did was ask a Presidential candidate a question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand your point about scrutinizing Joe the Plumber&#8217;s situation, but I just think it could have been done differently.  I mean, who isn&#8217;t off limits now?</p>
<p>Like you said McCain is also to blame for this becuase he brought up Joe&#8217;s specific situation.  What he should have done is just mention him in general terms.  That being said I still don&#8217;t like the fact that the media has dug into this guy&#8217;s personal life and exposed it to the rest of the country.  I don&#8217;t think anyone deserves that kind of treatment, especially when all you did was ask a Presidential candidate a question.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-plumbers/comment-page-1/#comment-422</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=524#comment-422</guid>
		<description>I think we need to make a distinction between examining Joe&#039;s claims regarding Obama&#039;s tax plan -- which are totally fair game -- and Joe as an individual.  Joe as an individual is completely uninteresting to me, unless he turns out to be a McCain plant or lying about his own situation.  But if Joe makes a false claim, and McCain wants to pretend that claim is true, then that claim needs to be scrutinized, perhaps with reference to Joe&#039;s socioeconomic position.

That said, many on the right -- like Michelle Malkin -- who lament the liberal media&#039;s evil scrutiny of Joe (&quot;Joe the Plumber Derangement Syndrome&quot; is what she calls it) were at the forefront of similar evil scrutiny when it came to the family of Graeme Frost and S-CHIP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we need to make a distinction between examining Joe&#8217;s claims regarding Obama&#8217;s tax plan &#8212; which are totally fair game &#8212; and Joe as an individual.  Joe as an individual is completely uninteresting to me, unless he turns out to be a McCain plant or lying about his own situation.  But if Joe makes a false claim, and McCain wants to pretend that claim is true, then that claim needs to be scrutinized, perhaps with reference to Joe&#8217;s socioeconomic position.</p>
<p>That said, many on the right &#8212; like Michelle Malkin &#8212; who lament the liberal media&#8217;s evil scrutiny of Joe (&#8220;Joe the Plumber Derangement Syndrome&#8221; is what she calls it) were at the forefront of similar evil scrutiny when it came to the family of Graeme Frost and S-CHIP.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-plumbers/comment-page-1/#comment-421</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=524#comment-421</guid>
		<description>rbates, I completely sympathize with your point.

I do not feel good about attacking an ordinary citizen like Joe the Plumber. But John McCain dragged Joe the Plumber into this debate the other night. McCain associated himself with Joe the Plumber&#039;s assertions, and exploited Joe the Plumber to state as fact that Joe the Plumber examined Obama&#039;s tax plan and saw that Obama&#039;s plan would raise Joe&#039;s taxes, preventing Joe from buying a business and employing people.

I certainly don&#039;t blame you for caring about Joe the Plumber as a matter of general principle -- and God knows there are details about my life that would be embaressing if exposed on national television or on a public blog.

But when Joe the Plumber makes a claim that becomes a central issue in a campaign affecting hundreds of millions of Americans -- we have to weigh the unpleasantness of embaressing Joe against the consequences for millions of Americans if McCain can successfully manipulate the American people into assuming that Joe knows what he&#039;s talking about. There&#039;s more at stake in this election than the reputation of Joe the Plumber. The idea that Obama&#039;s tax plan would hurt Joe the Plumber is a powerful idea -- and that&#039;s why it&#039;s important for us to be exposing it as a lie. That may hurt Joe, but it will hurt America far more if we let the lie stand unchallenged.

If you want to hold someone responsible for putting &quot;Joe the Plumber&quot; in the spotlight, why not blame John McCain?

McCain could have avoided putting Joe the Plumber in this position if McCain had made his point in more general terms -- by saying, for example, that many plumbers would suffer under his plan. But that would obviously be a lie. How many plumbers do you know that make $250,000 a year? To make his lie stick (at least for a few hours), McCain pointed to a specific example. So it is absolutely necessary to refer to that specific example in order to rebut the argument.

Anyway, I thank you for pointing out that in this instance, the media has been responsible for telling the truth to the American people -- and not the Obama campaign, which has chosen to give Joe the Plumber a little leeway. I&#039;m not saying Obama is some kind of moral hero for not going after Joe the Plumber -- it would have been politically stupid for Obama to start victimizing a poor plumber, as Obama well knows.

But somebody has to tell the truth. And I&#039;m pretty sure Joe the Plumber makes more money than I do every year, and I&#039;d expect to be treated the same way he is being treated if a presidential campaign suddenly hinged on statements I had made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rbates, I completely sympathize with your point.</p>
<p>I do not feel good about attacking an ordinary citizen like Joe the Plumber. But John McCain dragged Joe the Plumber into this debate the other night. McCain associated himself with Joe the Plumber&#8217;s assertions, and exploited Joe the Plumber to state as fact that Joe the Plumber examined Obama&#8217;s tax plan and saw that Obama&#8217;s plan would raise Joe&#8217;s taxes, preventing Joe from buying a business and employing people.</p>
<p>I certainly don&#8217;t blame you for caring about Joe the Plumber as a matter of general principle &#8212; and God knows there are details about my life that would be embaressing if exposed on national television or on a public blog.</p>
<p>But when Joe the Plumber makes a claim that becomes a central issue in a campaign affecting hundreds of millions of Americans &#8212; we have to weigh the unpleasantness of embaressing Joe against the consequences for millions of Americans if McCain can successfully manipulate the American people into assuming that Joe knows what he&#8217;s talking about. There&#8217;s more at stake in this election than the reputation of Joe the Plumber. The idea that Obama&#8217;s tax plan would hurt Joe the Plumber is a powerful idea &#8212; and that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s important for us to be exposing it as a lie. That may hurt Joe, but it will hurt America far more if we let the lie stand unchallenged.</p>
<p>If you want to hold someone responsible for putting &#8220;Joe the Plumber&#8221; in the spotlight, why not blame John McCain?</p>
<p>McCain could have avoided putting Joe the Plumber in this position if McCain had made his point in more general terms &#8212; by saying, for example, that many plumbers would suffer under his plan. But that would obviously be a lie. How many plumbers do you know that make $250,000 a year? To make his lie stick (at least for a few hours), McCain pointed to a specific example. So it is absolutely necessary to refer to that specific example in order to rebut the argument.</p>
<p>Anyway, I thank you for pointing out that in this instance, the media has been responsible for telling the truth to the American people &#8212; and not the Obama campaign, which has chosen to give Joe the Plumber a little leeway. I&#8217;m not saying Obama is some kind of moral hero for not going after Joe the Plumber &#8212; it would have been politically stupid for Obama to start victimizing a poor plumber, as Obama well knows.</p>
<p>But somebody has to tell the truth. And I&#8217;m pretty sure Joe the Plumber makes more money than I do every year, and I&#8217;d expect to be treated the same way he is being treated if a presidential campaign suddenly hinged on statements I had made.</p>
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		<title>By: rbates</title>
		<link>http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/2008/10/17/calling-all-plumbers/comment-page-1/#comment-420</link>
		<dc:creator>rbates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historyishappeningnow.com/?p=524#comment-420</guid>
		<description>To me the bigger overall issue is why the media has torn this guy apart.  I have no problem with the media attacking McCain.  Anything they dig up on him, in my view is ok.  But, to go after a private citizen and humiliate him to the entire country is just not right.  The guy asked a question, then gave an opinion.  What is wrong with that?  And I don&#039;t blame the Obama campagin for this; this was all done by the media.

Sure, McCain brought up Joe the Plumber in debate and both canadidates discussed him, but I beleive there are other ways for the media to defend Senator Obama&#039;s tax plan.

Imagine if the media dug into your past and discovered some things that you aren&#039;t necessarily proud of.  How would you feel about that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me the bigger overall issue is why the media has torn this guy apart.  I have no problem with the media attacking McCain.  Anything they dig up on him, in my view is ok.  But, to go after a private citizen and humiliate him to the entire country is just not right.  The guy asked a question, then gave an opinion.  What is wrong with that?  And I don&#8217;t blame the Obama campagin for this; this was all done by the media.</p>
<p>Sure, McCain brought up Joe the Plumber in debate and both canadidates discussed him, but I beleive there are other ways for the media to defend Senator Obama&#8217;s tax plan.</p>
<p>Imagine if the media dug into your past and discovered some things that you aren&#8217;t necessarily proud of.  How would you feel about that?</p>
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